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Question: Should income tax be abolished?  (Voting closed: July 29, 2018, 02:13:17 AM)
Yes - 6 (31.6%)
No - 10 (52.6%)
Maybe - 3 (15.8%)
Total Voters: 19

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Author Topic: Should income tax be abolished?  (Read 343 times)
Mjadon15
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August 07, 2018, 08:10:48 PM
 #41

Income tax punishes those who work hard. Income taxes are often argued as a way to take money from the "uber-rich", and give it to those who are poverty stricken. They often will say
that the rich don't need all that money, and giving it to the poor will increase their standard of living. The most popular person toted in these arguments is Bill Gates, with a net worth $95 billion. However, income tax does not actually get much of its money from Bill Gates, or Michael Jackson, or Tiger Woods. People get distracted by the big numbers, and don't think about it relatively. Yes, $95 billion is a lot of money, but the National debt is around $14 trillion. You would need 147 Bill Gates to pay that off. Also, if you took all of Bill Gate's money and gave an equal amount, each person would only get $290 dollars. Just taking the rich peoples money would not fix any problems. Instead, the income tax money comes from the middle class, the small business owners who work hard to keep their business running. Income tax takes away their initiative to work.
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boy130
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August 07, 2018, 09:46:31 PM
 #42

Income tax punishes those who work hard. Income taxes are often argued as a way to take money from the "uber-rich", and give it to those who are poverty stricken. They often will say
that the rich don't need all that money, and giving it to the poor will increase their standard of living. The most popular person toted in these arguments is Bill Gates, with a net worth $95 billion. However, income tax does not actually get much of its money from Bill Gates, or Michael Jackson, or Tiger Woods. People get distracted by the big numbers, and don't think about it relatively. Yes, $95 billion is a lot of money, but the National debt is around $14 trillion. You would need 147 Bill Gates to pay that off. Also, if you took all of Bill Gate's money and gave an equal amount, each person would only get $290 dollars. Just taking the rich peoples money would not fix any problems. Instead, the income tax money comes from the middle class, the small business owners who work hard to keep their business running. Income tax takes away their initiative to work.

I don't think its all true. paying tax is necessary to maintain certain public systems such as roads, school etc. And although, middle class pays income tax richer people pay a higher percentage so its not all about poor people paying most tax its all relative and in my opinion its necessary to have these funds.
gawer33
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August 09, 2018, 01:45:30 PM
 #43

without an income tax, the government will get in tax from other things like a higher VAT(value added tax). it will create high inflation which poorer people will suffer more than rich ones. Income tax is better since the richer ones will pay more tax, unlike higher VAT everyone will pay equally. one of the roles of the government is to lessen the burden on the poor, removing income tax will not achieve its goal, in fact, it may burden them more because of the inflated price due to a higher VAT.
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August 10, 2018, 02:23:52 PM
 #44

The US national debt increases every year because the US government continues to spend more than it brings in via taxes every year.

Roads are primarily financed by state governments, however the Federal DOT does give grants to states.

The overwhelming majority of US Federal Tax dollars go to transfer payments (welfare), although some of these tax dollars are specifically designated for transfer programs that the payor will, in theory will eventually get back (such as social security). It probably would be best to eliminate or significantly reduce most transfer programs because they create disincentives for individuals to generate income and wealth.

The primary thing that government provides that individuals absolutely cannot purchase themselves if there were no income taxes is a national defense, and as such, there must be some amount of taxes that collectively pays for national defense and security.

It is not sustainable to abolish tax, as these money go into maintenance of the roads, state schools etc and without taxpayer's money the government won't be able to provide these basics.
The post is about removing the type of tax called income tax, not about reducing taxes, if income tax is 30% of the money the government make, and it cease to exist, they can increase other types of taxes to make up for this 30% loss
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August 10, 2018, 09:58:44 PM
 #45

The US national debt increases every year because the US government continues to spend more than it brings in via taxes every year.

Roads are primarily financed by state governments, however the Federal DOT does give grants to states.

The overwhelming majority of US Federal Tax dollars go to transfer payments (welfare), although some of these tax dollars are specifically designated for transfer programs that the payor will, in theory will eventually get back (such as social security). It probably would be best to eliminate or significantly reduce most transfer programs because they create disincentives for individuals to generate income and wealth.

The primary thing that government provides that individuals absolutely cannot purchase themselves if there were no income taxes is a national defense, and as such, there must be some amount of taxes that collectively pays for national defense and security.
I also believe this, incentives matter and a progressive tax rate disincentives those that are the most productive, I have known a lot of people that could make more money and decide against it because the taxes are not worth it, so instead of having people working as hard as possible now you have some segment of the population working below capacity because of high taxes, governments should go back to its origins and secure their population from external and internal threats and enforce contracts.
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August 11, 2018, 11:59:28 AM
Merited by suchmoon (7), Foxpup (4)
 #46

Forgot to respond to this:

@guybrush

What you're forgetting is that the medical profession and pharmaceutical companies distort the market for healthcare a great deal. Without those distortions (patents, licensing and so on), the prices would find a more natural range.

And when everyone has to fend for themselves unregulated capitalism kicks into action and you get shoddy services with prices spiraling out of control and much worse. With no gov regulations malpractice would be rife and pharmaceutical companies would act even shadier than they already do. At least there's someone to punish and fine them when they get caught or screw up right now.

Notice how that's different from a socialised system, only those that chose to be insured bore any costs, and rich or poor, if you didn't want the safety net, you could save the money and spend it on what you wanted instead. The medical industry was essentially turned into a price-fixing cartel, with government help, and now the insurance system is pretty corrupt.

Get rid of health insurance and make it a fundamental human right as it should be. What about those who don't have the money or choice? If you can't afford it and they don't get insurance because they need to eat first? Health or starvation isn't something you should have to choose between or worry about.

Your assertion that I can choose piecemeal what I do and don't pay for now is incorrect.

It's not at all. Do you live in fascist state that you're not allowed to leave? If you lived in North Korea then you might have a point. Nobody has a gun to your heard forcing you to stay in a country. If you're so against the system then move to a tax haven or any other place that lets you live how you wish. You can't always have it your own way just like me or everyone else can't but you certainly have the freedom to do something about it if you don't like it.

If I earn an income without paying tax, my life and my possessions are physically threatened, and likely stolen by the state. You advocate this Guybrush, you help them to do it with your lack of action. I don't want to pay money for social costs that gets used in a way I don't agree with, and everyone who agrees to pay is only making the problem worse.

I don't advocate this at all. I advocate you not complying with the system and moving to a place where you'd be happy in your ideals. Don't feed the beast you hate. Stop funding it. Choose a country where you can be free to live as you please. It sounds like you'd be much happier with people of the same mindset where you can watch the world burn and people starve from the comfort of your heavily fotressed ivory tower.

Maybe you haven't taken part in enough elections yet, but you might eventually realise that there's only a very small number of people you can influence in elections, and so your vote does not matter. Where you spend your money though, that's a vote that really counts. One system works, the other doesn't.

I've never voted despite being eligible to do so in several elections. I'm well aware of how my vote counts for little to nothing, nor has there ever been a politician I've ever believed in. If that ever changes I may start.

If governments couldn't spend future taxes on the military in the present, war would be very different. If you advocate the government representative democracy system, that's essentially what you're standing up for; overwhelming military power and state power, where might is right and the citizen is really just a modern serf.

I'm not. Out of interest, what would you call someone who pays taxes to a state that they don't even agree with?

Democracy literally means "rule by the masses", but only the state has any power in this system, so it's not democracy. Bitcoin is designed to give some of that power back to people, but it sounds like you don't want power for either yourself or anyone else. You should sell, Bitcoin is not compatible with your ideals. Why own Bitcoin if you'll do anything someone says with your BTC if someone powerful threatens you?

Not at all. Bitcoin isn't just for you or me. It's for everyone. Libertarians can use it. Fascists can use it. Drug dealers can use. Entrepreneurs can use it. Tyrants can use it. Philanthropists can use it. Citizens of North Korea or Botswana can use it. People should be able to do whatever they want with it good or bad. Why would I give it away to someone who threatens me? If the government said I had to give it to them for something I didn't agree with then I would move to somewhere that didn't, nor does what I'm suggesting leave me powerless. I want some sort of basic and functioning society, not one where only those who can afford it have a say or can do anything about it. There should be roads. There should be hospitals. There should be police. There should be Firefighters. I don't want to have to get insurance for everything I might possibly ever need or be expected to pay thousands upon thousands if I ever do need them. These things should be a basic human right and I have no problem in paying into the pot to use them as and when needed. If you don't want to pay for them then cool. I support you not doing that. I wouldn't force you to stay in that country. If you take away certain basics of society then you become a third world nation. Without a benefits system there would be women and children starving to death on the street. Without healthcare people will be dying of cancer in the streets. Do you want to see that happen? I don't, but I think you're so blinded by your own 'ideals' that you don't care and think everyone should fend for themselves. If that is so then move to a country where this is the case instead of doing nothing about it other than complaining on the internet whilst simultaneously financing it.

Income tax punishes those who work hard. Income taxes are often argued as a way to take money from the "uber-rich", and give it to those who are poverty stricken. They often will say
that the rich don't need all that money, and giving it to the poor will increase their standard of living. The most popular person toted in these arguments is Bill Gates, with a net worth $95 billion. However, income tax does not actually get much of its money from Bill Gates, or Michael Jackson, or Tiger Woods. People get distracted by the big numbers, and don't think about it relatively. Yes, $95 billion is a lot of money, but the National debt is around $14 trillion. You would need 147 Bill Gates to pay that off. Also, if you took all of Bill Gate's money and gave an equal amount, each person would only get $290 dollars. Just taking the rich peoples money would not fix any problems. Instead, the income tax money comes from the middle class, the small business owners who work hard to keep their business running. Income tax takes away their initiative to work.

Just because this may be what happens now doesn't mean the whole system is fucked and can't change. Obviously things should be changed. I think a society where everyone chips in what they can afford is better than one where they don't. People who are poor shouldn't starve to death or die of cancer just because they can't afford it insurance or healthcare. Those should be a basic human right. I don't even believe we should tax the rich any more than the working or middle classes. Some sort of flat rate tax would be better in my opinion. Whether you're earning $50k a year or 50 million paying 20% is still fair to everyone. I don't think the rich should be paying 40-50% tax, though. Tax heavens and loopholes should also be abolished.

Yes, it should be changed.  USA should switch to consumption tax only and drop any income taxation.  Something like a VAT system would collect a lot more money than is currently.
And it's fair, based on spending.  Don't want to pay much? Don't spend much...

Don't some US states have a sales tax already? I think taxing spending could be much better than income, but I'd have to do more research on the figures it would bring in. Maybe some sort of minimal income tax with a higher sales tax would be better. I certainly think luxury goods should have higher taxes, but not basic essentials like food etc.
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August 12, 2018, 07:42:25 AM
 #47

What do you think?
I think if someones annual income is under or equal to $35K a year then double the tax if the income goes over $35K then reduce it to half. We can adjust the $35K with any other reasonable number.

My point is, give incentives to tweak peoples mind. Most of the people are poor, they don't work to earn more because they think it's good for them - they do not have to pay more tax. If we can tweak their mind and put this idea in-front of them that for up to x amount of annual income your tax is 20% and if you go above then your tax is 10% - you will see people will start working hard to cross the barrier of x to pay less tax.

The UK tax system works the reverse to this. The more people earn the higher percentage is paid in tax. This is why so many high earners use tax avoidance schemes.
I think a flat rate tax system is fairer where everyone pays the same level of tax, maybe there should be exceptions for low paid workers in public service industries such as health, police, fire fighters where they are not paid a wage that reflects their true value to society.
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